32 replies to this topic

[Colinftw]

I think that an interesting part of the game will be the farming aspect of moba-champs.Will there be any deny or not?Or the game will be in such way that there won't be any farming part?My opinion about the game will not be different because of the answer, it's just interesting.

[Astro]

This has already been brought up before and I personally want a deny but we will just have to wait and see.

[Rrated]

I personally hope denying is not in the game. I'm a long time vet from the ROC & Allstars Dota days & I believe that it has a negative effect on gameplay. For one it draws out games & diverts attention from farming & progression. Denying also has the potentional to completely & easily shut down a hero in a lane, which usually results in an unbalanced match. There are many other reasons but those come to mind first for me. I'm sure there will be plenty of other things to focus on during a match.

[IanD967]

I am against denying. It isnt fun especially if you are in a lane against a ranged opponent and you have no choice but hopelessly become useless since you cannot farm OR die from the ranged hero while you try to get some farm.

[Astro]

So many people against denying but dont understand the true importance of it IMO.

If you have a 2v2 lane and both have a range then its even. You should be going for last hits on the enemy creep for gold/xp and last hits on your creepy denying the enemy team some xp but also denying them the gold. Obviosuly they will still be generating gold every second but still.

Example.
Solo lane last hits creep and gets 61xp + gold for the kill. If I deny a creep they only get 41xp + no gold for them(thats how HON does it).

This is especially useful when it comes to solo lanes, maybe the other team has a jungle. That solo lane is going to be leveling faster then you, if it is a range solo then they can still go for last hits for gold/xp/denying. If someone is soloing a lane they have to be passive and not aggressive. Help should be coming from jungle, pulling creep waves etc. At the very least the enemy team will only be 1-2 levels tops behind the solo lane unless the lane with 2 ppl get ganked or straight up just stuck.

Now we dont know what the map looks like or anything really on the game so Im just explaining the importance of it.

P.s @Rrated - Me harrassing the hell out of you diverts you from farming and progression so really denying actually make no difference.

[Colinftw]

There is no "deny is better" it's just how you are used to. Same when it comes to Dota vs LoL or Hon vs LoL.

[Thanatological]

Devs said last hitting is not going to be an issue..

[IanD967]

Well that is true! it is starting to sound more like an RTS than MOBA yet people keep comparing it to dota games.

Edited by IanD967, 07 March 2012 - 10:31 AM.

[Thanatological]

The only thing that should be compared too a MOBA game is the hero portion of the game play. Not the RTS portion. The RTS portion is more a kind too the traditional RTS with minions and heroes(as players). The hero portion is skills, movement, stats, styles, ect ect. The RTS portion is units, buildings resources, ect ect.

Edited by Thanatological, 07 March 2012 - 10:32 AM.

[Rrated]

Astro, on 07 March 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

So many people against denying but dont understand the true importance of it IMO.

If you have a 2v2 lane and both have a range then its even. You should be going for last hits on the enemy creep for gold/xp and last hits on your creepy denying the enemy team some xp but also denying them the gold. Obviosuly they will still be generating gold every second but still.

Example.
Solo lane last hits creep and gets 61xp + gold for the kill. If I deny a creep they only get 41xp + no gold for them(thats how HON does it).

This is especially useful when it comes to solo lanes, maybe the other team has a jungle. That solo lane is going to be leveling faster then you, if it is a range solo then they can still go for last hits for gold/xp/denying. If someone is soloing a lane they have to be passive and not aggressive. Help should be coming from jungle, pulling creep waves etc. At the very least the enemy team will only be 1-2 levels tops behind the solo lane unless the lane with 2 ppl get ganked or straight up just stuck.

Now we dont know what the map looks like or anything really on the game so Im just explaining the importance of it.

P.s @Rrated - Me harrassing the hell out of you diverts you from farming and progression so really denying actually make no difference.

Aye my point. For me it would seem better for devs to promote action & harrassment rather than passive denying.

[Thanatological]

Which again the devs had said it would not be an issue. In fact so much so I doubt that we can have an action of harassment or denying done by the hero side of the game. Stop thinking of this as a MOBA game. The heroes are too be treated like super units in an mutiplayer RTS with two players. The heros then have too think about themselves as a hero in an open battle arena and not DoTa and its kin.

[Colinftw]

Oh my god! I can't wait to see how possibly could be this game!

[Jeru_Sorrin]

Thanatological, on 07 March 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

Which again the devs had said it would not be an issue. In fact so much so I doubt that we can have an action of harassment or denying done by the hero side of the game. Stop thinking of this as a MOBA game. The heroes are too be treated like super units in an mutiplayer RTS with two players. The heros then have too think about themselves as a hero in an open battle arena and not DoTa and its kin.

Well that is a good point. Honestly the entire deny issue is do to the fact that MOBA players are used to getting a majority their resources from minions verus capturing points and whatnot. So, although important if minions from the other side do give resoures and such, until we get more answers from Ironclad and such we won't really have idea of what will relationship with minions heroes will have. However if the topic would like to continue to dicuss the merits of denial or the problems thereof from other games why not start a new topic in the off topic subforum? That way you can dicuss and come up with pros and cons when we do know more.

[cinderboy]

Why not just have an option to turn it on and off before each game starts?

[Sayan]

So far from the video footage available I don't see anyone trying to deny since it plays like a traditional RTS, the skirmishes are sporadic at best, its more akin to WC3 melee than MOBA ofcourse I haven't seen the hero role being played yet so.

[Astro]

Sayan, on 08 March 2012 - 03:44 AM, said:

So far from the video footage available I don't see anyone trying to deny since it plays like a traditional RTS, the skirmishes are sporadic at best, its more akin to WC3 melee than MOBA ofcourse I haven't seen the hero role being played yet so.

Noticed that, Im intrigued at best right now. Look interesting and worth a shot.

[Dorjan]

In this game the important thing to focus on will be positioning and map control. RTS elements.

MOBAs lanes aren't going to be in this since the commander won't be just randomly sending units at you. They'll be there for a reason.

In other words Denying will have no place in this game since it wouldn't be any good nor make sense.

[Jeru_Sorrin]

Dorjan, on 08 March 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

In this game the important thing to focus on will be positioning and map control. RTS elements.

MOBAs lanes aren't going to be in this since the commander won't be just randomly sending units at you. They'll be there for a reason.

In other words Denying will have no place in this game since it wouldn't be any good nor make sense.

True but I think at the time this thread was made people thought this would be more like a MOBA but the RTS had alot more influence so, although outdated it was a good thing to dicuss.

[CraigFraser]

We have always presented the game as a "hero and commander strategy" game because that most accurately represents what it is.  I realize it's difficult to truly understand a hybrid genre without playing it, but I think once people understand the game mechanics they will really appreciate it for what it is.  I've been through 20 media presentations in the past 48 hours.  After seeing it play out everyone 'gets' what a unique beast we are creating here without labeling it with preexisting genre titles

[Milkshaker]

I am all for denying XP (by forcing your opponent back from the minion line for example), but denying gold is an unfun mechanic. Its also counter intuitive because who would want to shoot their allies?

Edited by Milkshaker, 09 March 2012 - 02:06 AM.