59 replies to this topic

[Thanatological]

Im still lost too where "pay to win" comes from as well. Anyway, this topic seems to be trying too go that way. I am going too clear this up right now for everyone, THIS GAME WILL NOT BE PAY TOO WIN. Its the devs words. It also will not require endless grind too unlock stuff. We are talking about the unlocking of units, talents whatever system we decide too unlock new units, structures, ect As one plays more without buying of anything.

[CraigFraser]

Do you think you could write one positive post sinner?

[psychoak]

High hopes, huh?

[ChrisK]

Hey guys, please try to get back to the topic.

"Please do not require 'leveling' to unlock units or powers."

Don't make me close this as it is an interesting topic.
Thanks

Chris

[Thanatological]

CraigFraser, on 21 March 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

Do you think you could write one positive post sinner?

Im sorry too say thats how some people reply too people who express a different view of try too redirect topics away from what they want.  While not being reason enough to punish, I believe other people are too the point of ignoring him at this point.

IGP_Chris, on 21 March 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

Hey guys, please try to get back to the topic.

"Please do not require 'leveling' to unlock units or powers."

Don't make me close this as it is an interesting topic.
Thanks

Chris

Well, I should of taken the more profession approach with my post, as a user however, I do express my opinions instead of doing it the right way. However thank you for redirecting this topic in the way it should of been.

That said, back too the topic.

With some time toot think about it, I would say a "talent tree", where a commander can pick an unlock units/structures/update trees in a sorta lobby prior too starting the game would be quite nice. The main concern I have with that is an issue of starting games in a  timely manner. If we were too take a more permanent "I choose this unlock for this faction", would we have too upgrade each faction as we go? That might require more and more grind for new users as we have more content. I am sure it could all be sorta out but I think I still might be for a set level unlocking units, content, and upgrades.

Edited by Thanatological, 21 March 2012 - 01:06 PM.

[LordWildMan]

Just heard about this game from RPS Podcast, and it sounds really fun. Looking forward to the beta. Also, wall of text coming up.

Now, on topic. I am a big DOTA 1 and 2 vet, so I could be biased here, but I don't want any sort of leveling at all. I have played LoL, and the most frustrating thing about the game for me is that I have to grind for a very long time to unlock all the masteries and rune slots. I know how to play the game, so why does the game refuse to allow me to make my decisions about masteries now? Also, those who say that these things add in extra level of meta-game or whatever to the game are, in my opinion, wrong. In LoL, there are only a few best choices for masteries and runes for a particular hero. It doesn't change the game that much when everyone s using the same masteries for the same hero.

Also, what if you are new to the game and you want to play with some friends who are experienced, and have lots of levels? This is my biggest problem with League, as I am a level 8 or something, playing with friends who are 500+ game level 30s, who have all the runes and mastery slots, so they have a significant advantage over me. Never mind that I am equal in skill (arguably), they have an advantage simply because they have payed more. I don't think that is very fair to players at all, that the more you play the better you become, simply through 'leveling.'

I don't believe that locking some items, abilities, or units out for new players is helping them out at all either. If they are confused by all the choices, they can do tutorials, read guides, and play bot games. I do that all the time when I am trying out a new strategy. For me personally, locking things out causes me to become frustrated, as I know how the stuff works, but I have to spend 10+ hours to unlock it so I can use it.

This is one of the things that I think all of the dota clones, besides HoN, get wrong. They have a meta-game progression system that rewards players for time spent in game, separate from their skills learned while playing. When I play dota, I know the only difference between me and the other team is pure skill. No meta game, no masteries, no runes, no summoner spells. Just pure skill. If they get away or beat me, I know it was that player out played me, and not due to some outside force that he has unlocked and that I don't have. When I land that amazing Pudge hook on a leaping Mirana, I know that was due to skill, and not any sort of bonus I have that he may not.

In short, please don't add LoL-type meta-game stuff to this game, like summoner spells and masteries. It just makes good players better, new players worse, and an unnecessary element of grinding to the game.

Wall of text over.

[Thanatological]

LordWildMan, on 21 March 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

Now, on topic. I am a big DOTA 1 and 2 vet, so I could be biased here, but I don't want any sort of leveling at all. I have played LoL, and the most frustrating thing about the game for me is that I have to grind for a very long time to unlock all the masteries and rune slots. I know how to play the game, so why does the game refuse to allow me to make my decisions about masteries now? Also, those who say that these things add in extra level of meta-game or whatever to the game are, in my opinion, wrong. In LoL, there are only a few best choices for masteries and runes for a particular hero. It doesn't change the game that much when everyone s using the same masteries for the same hero.

Im a longtime vet as well as many of us here are. The problem is I am also a vet of many MMOs, RTS, and online gaming in general. So my opinion is not set. Secondaly, it has been said it will not be a grind which again has been stated in at least ten post in this topic. Thirdly, this is not a MOBA, removing of any system that would unlock would casue the many problems mentioned in this topic. .Thirdly DoTa 2 WILL feature  a leveling system too unlock things, is however is currently not inplemented.  Finnaly on the compeitive level every stat regardless of that 1% or 1 damage counts, and such in the higher ELo of LoL you will find for a fact that everyone uses the same runes/mastries for a set build rather then a set hero.

LordWildMan, on 21 March 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

Also, what if you are new to the game and you want to play with some friends who are experienced, and have lots of levels? This is my biggest problem with League, as I am a level 8 or something, playing with friends who are 500+ game level 30s, who have all the runes and mastery slots, so they have a significant advantage over me. Never mind that I am equal in skill (arguably), they have an advantage simply because they have payed more. I don't think that is very fair to players at all, that the more you play the better you become, simply through 'leveling.'

This system will be corrected the same way LoL did it, you tier on average of the groups level. So even if I pick up LoL as a level 1 and queue with a group of all 30s I am mostly going too play with level 15 players. Where as I can point out you said runes and such make no difference, I will not draw upon that point but instead. I will point out, that those runes, mastries and more or not meant too be used in a"pubber" game, where you are not expected too be competitive or work for the team rather then ones own stats. The inpact upon the game is so small in those kind of games that it is almost sad. All it would require is for one person too adapt their game play. However more too the point, should we adjust a game too be a pick up and go without any learning curve? That would reuiqre a game without depth and thus a game without diversify.

LordWildMan, on 21 March 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

I don't believe that locking some items, abilities, or units out for new players is helping them out at all either. If they are confused by all the choices, they can do tutorials, read guides, and play bot games. I do that all the time when I am trying out a new strategy. For me personally, locking things out causes me to become frustrated, as I know how the stuff works, but I have to spend 10+ hours to unlock it so I can use it.

Like I pointed out, a five hour tuttiral will give no practical experience and one will learn so little that it will have no impact upon the real learning curve of the game play rather then the sterile  system of the game. Rather then hand a child a nuclear bomb, lets hand him a sling shot and let him learn, you must take note this game has a major RTS element as such a system is required else you will be overwhelmed and many people will outright quit rather then try too figure it out. This is not about the experience or abilities of one person but of the base of players who might play

LordWildMan, on 21 March 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

This is one of the things that I think all of the dota clones, besides HoN, get wrong. They have a meta-game progression system that rewards players for time spent in game, separate from their skills learned while playing. When I play dota, I know the only difference between me and the other team is pure skill. No meta game, no masteries, no runes, no summoner spells. Just pure skill. If they get away or beat me, I know it was that player out played me, and not due to some outside force that he has unlocked and that I don't have. When I land that amazing Pudge hook on a leaping Mirana, I know that was due to skill, and not any sort of bonus I have that he may not.

"Pure skill" I would like you too go over too LoL or HoN communties or even the more harder DoTa 2 community and tell them, your game makes it about less skill because you require too mange more and deal with more variables. The fact is those are more competitive tools, and the very reason LoL and HoN both have a larger community then DoTa and an even larger competitive element. The very reason that DoTa itself attempted too add such a system back in 2006 but failed too due too scripting limitations of world edit.

Edited by Thanatological, 21 March 2012 - 02:19 PM.

[CraigFraser]

LordWildMan, on 21 March 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

It just makes good players better, new players worse, and an unnecessary element of grinding to the game. Wall of text over.

I agree. We are doing all we can to prevent this from happening.

[Jeru_Sorrin]

Wow this thread has some serious food for thought. Indeed the Pro's and Con's of out-game leveling are many more than I even thought. Now I think I know where the Pay to play thoughts started to come in, it was because some people mention that if they needed to unlock units to play them that would rather pay for it than to earn them through expirence. Also they prefered to have them avalible immeadiately vs. having to play for them. I agree on somewhat with this: meaning that once someone has unlocked a faction one should have all units to play with them in the muti-player. I think that what will happen from what I've heard from the news reports.

However, for the scernios that have been mentioned, I think it would be cool if there were unit resrictions for the specific scenrio. Not mult-player play. That said what I really been trying to say for the out-game leveling is that it should get a hero and commander gameplay sheets/ masteries/ whatever the devs what to have. Something like LoL has for both types of player style: the commander and  the hero.

I can see now why that would have some con's like what lordwildman said. However this can be negated by a simple mode change provided by the devs. To make it so that people try out the different modes, the dev's, could institute a reward for trying out both types of the game/ the many other types of play they offer.

[Jeru_Sorrin]

Ah, I didn't see craig post til after I was done . So what do you mean by making unnecessary grind? I can understand not forcing a player to wait too long to get a faction but not in-game advantages?

[Effay]

LordWildman brought up some good points i hadn't thought of about this issue.

There are literally zero reasons to include any sort of grind or unlocking anything that is not aesthetic. The game becomes worse in every way, and every possible benefit of including unlocking can be fixed with other, better methods (matchmaking systems, tutorials, etc).

[LordWildMan]

Thanatological, on 21 March 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

Secondaly, it has been said it will not be a grind which again has been stated in at least ten post in this topic.

Not saying there will be a long grind, I am just saying that I am against any sort of grind. Perhaps I am out of the norm though.

Thanatological, on 21 March 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

Thirdly DoTa 2 WILL feature  a leveling system too unlock things, is however is currently not inplemented.  

I would like to know where you heard that. The devs have stated many times that all heroes are available from the start. If you mean cosmetic items, I am fine with paying money for those sorts of things, as they do not directly affect gameplay.

Thanatological, on 21 March 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

Like I pointed out, a five hour tuttiral will give no practical experience and one will learn so little that it will have no impact upon the real learning curve of the game play rather then the sterile  system of the game. Rather then hand a child a nuclear bomb, lets hand him a sling shot and let him learn, you must take note this game has a major RTS element as such a system is required else you will be overwhelmed and many people will outright quit rather then try too figure it out. This is not about the experience or abilities of one person but of the base of players who might play.

Which is why you play bot games and read guides. However, I think this is a different way of looking at new players we both have. You wish to cut off access to certain things to make it easier for them to pick up the game, while I want everything unlocked from the start. Just a different way of looking at it.

Thanatological, on 21 March 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

"Pure skill" I would like you too go over too LoL or HoN communties or even the more harder DoTa 2 community and tell them, your game makes it about less skill because you require too mange more and deal with more variables. The fact is those are more competitive tools, and the very reason LoL and HoN both have a larger community then DoTa and an even larger competitive element. The very reason that DoTa itself attempted too add such a system back in 2006 but failed too due too scripting limitations of world edit.

I apologize, I don't know what you are saying. Perhaps something was lost in the writing?

DOTA 2 has been the biggest competitive game in the genre until the most recent LoL season, with the 1 million dollar tournament Valve hosted. I believe this was the largest single prize for a gaming tournament in history. HoN has a much smaller community than DOTA, only a few hundred thousand while millions play DOTA 1 and 2.

CraigFraser, on 21 March 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

I agree. We are doing all we can to prevent this from happening.

I trust the devs to see this through. You guys do great work.

[Thanatological]

LordWildMan, on 21 March 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

I would like to know where you heard that. The devs have stated many times that all heroes are available from the start. If you mean cosmetic items, I am fine with paying money for those sorts of things, as they do not directly affect gameplay.

http://www.playdota....ad.php?t=598755 and various other playdota threads.
You WILL not have everything unlocked form the get go, as said by valve in a press release I don't have bookmarked nor can I find at the moment. Its a simple left hand not knowing what the right is doing. Weather this is heroes or not is why I did not say heroes and we were unsure of what it will entail.

LordWildMan, on 21 March 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

Which is why you play bot games and read guides. However, I think this is a different way of looking at new players we both have. You wish to cut off access to certain things to make it easier for them to pick up the game, while I want everything unlocked from the start. Just a different way of looking at it.

I agree its a simple view on how too deal with it. Because I for one don't think bots teach anything really and more often then not start bad habits.

LordWildMan, on 21 March 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

DOTA 2 has been the biggest competitive game in the genre until the most recent LoL season, with the 1 million dollar tournament Valve hosted. I believe this was the largest single prize for a gaming tournament in history. HoN has a much smaller community than DOTA, only a few hundred thousand while millions play DOTA 1 and 2.

I don't consider "competitive gaming" the amount of money in it but rather the NUMBER of players that play it. Call of Duty for example has a rather competitive group of players amount its massive causal base, why I won't count all of them I will for certain say there is a larger competitive community then say Pacman. The same can be said for DoTa and LoL community, the LoL community has a large competitive community and HoN itself stood even larger at one point. SO when you say "pure skill" and what is defined as requiring skill I see as requiring less skill.



That aside I am rather disappointed too hear we will be lowering the bar on integration of unfamiliar players into a game.

Edited by Thanatological, 21 March 2012 - 07:13 PM.

[LordWildMan]

Thanatological, on 21 March 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

http://www.playdota....ad.php?t=598755 and various other playdota threads.
You WILL not have everything unlocked form the get go, as said by valve in a press release I don't have bookmarked nor can I find at the moment. Its a simple left hand not knowing what the right is doing. Weather this is heroes or not is why I did not say heroes and we were unsure of what it will entail.

http://www.dota-two....st-news-wrap-up
Says that they will have all heroes for all players. This is the main thing that I am worried about for this game: that they will have heroes/units/abilities locked from use for new players. As long as all the upgrades are cosmetic in nature, I am fine with it.

Will I not play SoaDA if I have to unlock stuff? No, I will just be disappointed.

Also, something to consider for new heroes is a coaching system. Something for a player to spectate a particular player or something, so they can help out a newbie. Similar to what DOTA 2 will eventually have. This could solve some of the problems for the learning curve. Also, to encourage people to coach, you could give benefits to players who coach.

[Thanatological]

I honestly doubt I will be into it if everything is unlocked from the get go, I have seen it ruin games, I have seen it make game less of what they could be. Secondly, EA for example said they had no DLC for mass Effect 3 prior too release being made, and we would get full content from day one, that turned out wrong. Simply because they say things will be does not mean it changes, second a lot of news is posturing or trying too keep people interested. It is true regardless of anything.  Same thing occurred with games like Total War, Call of Duty, and other major games. They say things like this all the time.  Also I am not  not saying heroes, I really feel your not reading the full extent of my post.

Now lets get this said this is NOT a MOBA, if we have everything unlocked from day one their is no chance too learn the content. No RTS game every ever did well with all the content unlocked from the day one.  However this too is not an RTS, but the topic at hand is unlocking of heroes but of units, and abilities in a game that will require commander hero interaction.  With many diffrent heroes and faction leaders this game will get clumped up VERY VERY fast. Playing bots will provide little no no understanding of how too play this game anyway.  Lets not forget games like Battleforge where all you do too get beat AI for the first three hours of your game play before you are even allowed too do PvP and then dropping into PvP is always a lose right away simply because PvP is done way differently then a PvE game.

As too a coaching system, I am not sure that will go over well regardless of the game. People just don't like too be told they are doing things wrong. Most people also don't seek out people too help, or too get help. The system may sound good, may help a few, however I honestly feel the inpact will be small.

Edited by Thanatological, 22 March 2012 - 06:04 AM.

[Effay]

Thanatological, on 22 March 2012 - 06:02 AM, said:

Now lets get this said this is NOT a MOBA, if we have everything unlocked from day one their is no chance too learn the content. No RTS game every ever did well with all the content unlocked from the day one.  However this too is not an RTS, but the topic at hand is unlocking of heroes but of units, and abilities in a game that will require commander hero interaction.  With many diffrent heroes and faction leaders this game will get clumped up VERY VERY fast. Playing bots will provide little no no understanding of how too play this game anyway.  Lets not forget games like Battleforge where all you do too get beat AI for the first three hours of your game play before you are even allowed too do PvP and then dropping into PvP is always a lose right away simply because PvP is done way differently then a PvE game.

As too a coaching system, I am not sure that will go over well regardless of the game. People just don't like too be told they are doing things wrong. Most people also don't seek out people too help, or too get help. The system may sound good, may help a few, however I honestly feel the inpact will be small.

Starcraft 1 and 2 are both in the top 10 best selling PC games of all time, and neither of them had grinding to unlock things (expansions don't count, everyone who bought an expansion had the same stuff as others from the get go). Your statement of 'no RTS that had everything unlocked from the start hasn't done well' is an utter fabrication.Locking parts of the game away until a player plays some arbitrary amount of time decided by the developers doesn't 'ease' people into the game, it ACTiVELY KEEPS THEM FROM PLAYING IT. A game is defined by it's set of rules, and if you change rules of the game by adding abilities, then you have to learn an entirely new game every time you unlock things. Can you imagine how different chess would be if Queens didn't exist?  Having to unlock parts of the game makes it MORE confusing, not less.

If the developers are interested in making a game that is competitive and tournament worthy, erecting pointless barriers like grinding to play the real game will only hurt it. Sure, it could pique the interest of some casuals for the short term, but the long term longevity of the game will be gone since the game will be made worse for no reason. The developers should make the game deep (thus it will be interesting, and thus a good game) and provide tutorials that explain how the mechanics work. Games as complex as RTSs develop in ways developers can't even imagine since their possibility space is so large, so as more strategies are discovered the developers can update their tutorials. (Non) gamers that need to be incentivized to play the game with a false sense of achievement by unlocking things instead of learning to play the game will move on once the next big thing comes out and thus should NOT be catered towards in this manner.

If the things you unlock are PURELY aesthetic, then it's fine. Those things are more fun for casual players to unlock anyway, so why not do that while simultaneously making a game that's as good as it can be?

[Thanatological]

You really are killing the passion I have for this game..If you don't want too meet any standards of discussion you are more then free too take it elsewhere. However "faberction and the such are purely methods too discourage people from listing. Now I can really get rather hostile like you just did, but I just ripped 50% of my post, because of my overly negative respond.

Effay, on 22 March 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

Starcraft 1 and 2 are both in the top 10 best selling PC games of all time, and neither of them had grinding to unlock things (expansions don't count, everyone who bought an expansion had the same stuff as others from the get go). Your statement of 'no RTS that had everything unlocked from the start hasn't done well' is an utter fabrication.Locking parts of the game away until a player plays some arbitrary amount of time decided by the developers doesn't 'ease' people into the game, it ACTiVELY KEEPS THEM FROM PLAYING IT. A game is defined by it's set of rules, and if you change rules of the game by adding abilities, then you have to learn an entirely new game every time you unlock things. Can you imagine how different chess would be if Queens didn't exist?  Having to unlock parts of the game makes it MORE confusing, not less.

First Starcraft has SINGLE PLAYER GAME, where you can UNLOCK and LEARN everything. Secondly, if you read me entire POST you will find I refereed too online RTS without single player campaigns. So calling my statement fabrication is purely baseless. Thirdly a game may be defined by rules but could you think if we said we took out pawns because they depth of their use is too much as one learns? Yea go play your chess without pawns. However this is a poor comparison, I could point out card games liek MAGIC the gathering would not be there if you could not get new abilities or new cards. Having unlocking will just make is easier for people too learn.

Effay, on 22 March 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

If the developers are interested in making a game that is competitive and tournament worthy, erecting pointless barriers like grinding to play the real game will only hurt it. Sure, it could pique the interest of some casuals for the short term, but the long term longevity of the game will be gone since the game will be made worse for no reason. The developers should make the game deep (thus it will be interesting, and thus a good game) and provide tutorials that explain how the mechanics work. Games as complex as RTSs develop in ways developers can't even imagine since their possibility space is so large, so as more strategies are discovered the developers can update their tutorials. (Non) gamers that need to be incentivized to play the game with a false sense of achievement by unlocking things instead of learning to play the game will move on once the next big thing comes out and thus should NOT be catered towards in this manner.

If they are interested in making a competitive game they will have more then a set amount of content where half of it is useless because the other team can use the narrow focus of content too achieve the best combination from day one. But yes let us pick the intrest of the causal player with everything from day one. Non-gamers who "Need" to be "incentivized"? May I ask are you saying we should fight new players and prevent people from learning and becoming competitive? Thats the very tainted though that causal players look at games and ruin them for new players.

Effay, on 22 March 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

If the things you unlock are PURELY aesthetic, then it's fine. Those things are more fun for casual players to unlock anyway, so why not do that while simultaneously making a game that's as good as it can be?

Why the hell are we still trying too talk cash shops and the sort?

Edited by Thanatological, 23 March 2012 - 06:21 AM.

[Hamengeri]

Leveling is a type of leg, which helps game-body in moving from place 2 place. Of course, it can jump on one leg instead of walking on both legs, but what is easier and more effective? I mean, game without leveling limps, enabling noobs to do as much as pros.

Edited by Hamengeri, 23 March 2012 - 07:39 AM.

[Thanatological]

Well I guess we COULD put a new player in a game with a veteran player. However it is not about separation of the two  in terms of content but rather a separation of two in terms of experience in the game, which alone would defeat most the arguments the system I suggest now. However we don't get it.

[CWheezy]

I agree with Effay here, I just looked and am interested in this game, but if there is a grind I will of course not play.

I play competitive street fighter, where everyone has equal access to everything right off the bat, only skill decides who wins, not time played.

I have also played league of legends, which is a horrible horrible grind. You still get matched up against level 30s in matchmaking while levelling, at any level. This is very horrible for new players, as now they don't know whether it was because of their own poor play which caused them to lose, or the level and power difference.

Also you mention single player. Having unlocks in SINGLE PLAYER is totally fine! It is actually kind of the point of having a single player mode, in that the missions are designed to have only certain unit available, wildly varying starting conditions, all that stuff. But you notice that as soon as there is any competition, everything is totally unlocked and ready to use, which is the key point

Edited by CWheezy, 23 March 2012 - 09:06 PM.