Undead faction, give me feed back on this idea please.

Undead vampire zombie skeleton necromancer necrowmancy

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#1 HorneyBull

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 12:21 PM

EDITED Fifth TIME AROUND! THANKS FOR THE FEED BACK SO FAR :D
SORRY FOR MY GOD AWFUL SPELLING, I dunno why it was so bad :<
So here's my idea of a undead faction. It's in the style of Superscope's tech race thread. http://www.sinsofada...-please-review/
The main idea of this faction is a strength in numbers, where they have cheaper weaker units but are able to resurrect the dead to boost it's army. The idea of this race is that in order to get stronger units, you need to sacrifice the living. Also the main hero, the master necromancer is the only one who can build buildings needed to build an army or upgrade. The master necromancer is the leader of this race, and is the core of this race.

Racial passives: undead units have a chance to reduce incoming pain. Undead units are immune to psychological effects, and breathing...lol. Skeletons have a chance to dodge ranged damage.
Racial weakness: Fire, and holy magic, and siege attacks. Skeletons only take reduced damage from ranged and have a chance that it will miss them. Healing hurts the undead. Undead creatures cannot regenerate life.

Buildings:

Main "town center" The dark keep: A town center able to build peasants who can build farms to reproduce them selves.
Upgrades: Dark castle, gives the ability to train dark knights which require 1 peasant. Dark palace, gives the ability to recruit nobles and vampires which require 2 peasants and 1 noble.

Old barracks: Contains various upgrades for the physical damage dealers.
Upgrades: Dark blade, for the dark knights, which applies a debuff making the affected unit immune to healing. Sanguine armor for the vampires turning them into vampire knights them a little more resistance to melee attacks and holy magic. Arterial training for the vampire knights giving them a chance to do a critical hit per attack which causes a bleed effect. Rotten arrows for the skeletal archers which apply a slow debuff on enemy units. Legions of the damned, for the zombies only, they gain the ability to have a low % chance to bring a unit killed by them back as a zombie.

Crypt: The place for undead conversion. Peasants can be converted into zombies, and skeletal archers and acolytes.
Upgrades: Graveyard, allows you to convert acolytes into necromancers and peasants in to ghosts. Necropolis, allows you convert necromancers into liches. Meat cleaver, adds bonus damage to the zombies. BRAINS!, after a zombie kills a unit he enters a feeding frenzy, slightly increasing movement speed and attack speed. Soul steal, acolytes, necromancers and liches are able to convert dead bodies into ghosts. Dark aura, liches get a passive aura which reduces the armor of enemy units. Lingering presence, allows you to convert ghosts in to poltergeists, which allows them a weak and slow auto attack.

Forsaken apothecary: Researches health improvements for your army and upgrades for the plague catapult. Allows training of the plague catapult here.
Upgrades: Spiked ram, a wall with spikes sticking out that can be used to impale melee attackers or damage gates, this is an upgrade for plague catapult. The plague, a vile debuff that damages living units nearby the catapult ranged attack applies the plague after finished this research. Reproductive plague, the plague can jump from living enemy unit to living enemy unit. Crimson plague, units affected take a % of their max life per second. Persistent plague, the duration of the plague is doubled. Necrotic plague, Frankenstein horror, towers and zombies carry the plague. Consuming horror, the Consuming abomination turns into the stronger Consuming  horror.

Farms: A building that makes peasants over time.

Tower: a defensive tower, that has skeletal archers to fire arrows.
Upgrades: Dark tower, requires the plague, the tower gains an extra attack that inflicts the plague.

Death's verdict: A unique building that spreads the plague around it's area. The spread starts off fast but slows down and eventually stops as the area gets bigger. Allows you to cast death incarnate on the master necromancer. UNIQUE HERO UPGRADE Death incarnate, makes the master necromancer into a ghost making him immune to physical damage, and weaker to holy damage (the master necromancer becomes undead after having this spell cast on him)

Noble plots: Similar to a farm but require 4 farms to build one, and 8 farms for two, and so on.

Wall of the damned: A wall segment that blocks units.
Upgrades: The damned, adds corpses inside the wall that attack melee attacks and adds a bit more armor to the wall. Dead architects, adds builders in the wall which allows you to repair the wall at the cost of resources, when not in combat, also adds slightly more defense and improves the attack of the damned upgrade.

Main hero:

HYBRID builder/unique hero "master necromancer" (alive and not undead, therefore immune to holy magic and can be healed.): who can build throughout channeling dark magic to either convert damaged enemy buildings, or summon new buildings. While channeling he can't be moved. Converted buildings will build the correct racial units of the faction such as workers would be now skeletons, and zombies would be receive from footmen. Unique abilities would include being able to receive experience from building and raising minions. Being the only unit in the early game that has his minions not die after a period of time. Also being the only unit able to make a Consumer abomination later in the game which is the only take for the undead. This unit is immune to holy magic, and can be healed.

Spells ONLY FOR THE MASTER NECROWMANCER, He is the race's special hero and contains all the race's spells. however they do not have a global range, they are just like every other caster's spells but end up being stronger. They can be interrupted and recast.

Raise dead: summons the undead version of the target creature's corpse. Starting off it can only convert workers, footmen and archers, into skeleton miners, zombies, and skeletal archers. The next levels will be able to convert multiple corpses at once, and more creatures such as undead knights. He is the only early game unit of this race who can make permanent creatures stay up without dieing after a period of time. This spell is on a short cool down and is used to build up your army.

Convert: Places the targeted low health building under your control. Only works on none holy building such as castles and more buildings. Converted buildings can only produce your racial creatures and cannot be repaired. Since the main hero is the only one who can build new undead structures that produce undead creatures, this spell is used to create field outposts out of conquered camps and buildings. Converted buildings only have 25% of their original hp.

Build: Channel to summon a racial building, the time required for each building differs. He is the only one who can build racial buildings to improve this race on the battle field.

Torment soul: Target a unit and deal damage, if the unit dies a ghost is born. Later levels give this spell a small aoe and more damage.

Decay: Target an area, all creatures within this area start to decay, turning corpses into skeletal corpses dealing % damage per second based on their max hp. Corpses affected by this spell are only able to be resurrected as skeletons with a melee attack. So if they would cast raise dead, instead of zombies and dark knights, they would become skeletons with a melee attack. The skeletons would be fragile like every other skeleton in this race.

Ultimate Summon Consumer Abomination: An unique summoned unit that has a ridiculous amount of amount of health with low attack damage. Upgrades: Consumer horror researched, which allows this summon to be a host of the plague, and regain life by walking over corpses. Also for every corpse walked on, his max life increases by a % of the corpse's max life. This unit does low damage in a cleave in front of it. The idea is to upgrade it into the horror so that the plague can be used to provide damage. *NOTE* all master necromancer spells are permanent including this guy. He is the end game unit of the dead. A corpse which consumes other corpses to get stronger. He doesn't die after a period of time. This spell can be recast if interrupted, if this spell is successfully cast, it cannot be recast again. Damage done to this unit reduces his max life.

OR

Ultimate Endless ranks of the damned (Passive): Every time a corpse is produced into a large area, the corpse is automatically reborn as the undead unit version of that corpse.
And the following spell
Ultimate spell Legion: One becomes many and many becomes one. Every unit, hero or champion slain by this hero ONLY has their soul captured by the master necromancer. While storing souls every time the master necromancer dies he sacrifices a soul instead and heals him for 100% hp if more than one death occur within 5 minutes, the following heal will be reduced by 50%, and will stack with his deaths, so for example he dies three times his third heal will only be 25% of his hp instead of 100%. On cast, the master necromancer releases the souls around him, causing him to reanimate all the creatures he has killed to come back to life as part of his army. Enemies slain by his minions will not capture souls for this skill. On recast, he recalls all the reanimated creatures back as souls.


Units:

Skeletal miner: armed with a pick axe, can't build, only mine. The difference with this worker is that he is dirt cheap to produce, he also is faster than regular miners but produces less resources.

Peasants(alive): a willing and expensive sacrifice that is needed to raise or train other creatures for this race. The cost of training this unit increases as the amount of peasants in the empire. Peasants can build farms which will produce more peasants over time free of change but at a longer time rate than to train them. (OVERALL BUILDING A PEASANT FARM WILL MAKE MORE FREE PEASANTS.)

Nobles(alive): similar to peasants, but used for vampires. Can build noble plots.

Zombies: slow creature with decent life. Low attack speed, and movement speed. melee fighter

Skeletal archers: low life ranged unit, very weak to melee and siege damage. Strong vs ranged archers.

Acolytes (alive): An early game caster and support unit. Melee unit that can raise the dead, which for 30 seconds.

Necromancers (alive): mid game caster upgraded acolyte, can raise the dead permanently. mid ranged attacker.

Liches: Powerful longest range caster, can raise dead permanently, attacks deal extra damage based on how much life the unit is missing.

Plague catapult: Long ranged siege unit. Tosses corpses, and deals small amount of siege damage in a small aoe.

Vampires: Heals for damage done. Melee fighter.

Ghosts: Melee unit which can harass enemies. Can pass through solid objects and can climb up walls, and walk on water. Cannot harm living units, can kill mechanical units, and damage buildings up to 35% hp. Can cast haunt which makes the ghost hide in a resource and periodically scares a nearby enemy. Immune to physical and siege damage, takes extra damage from healing and holy magic.

Banshees:  A fragile female ghost that can cast a scream that will kill one random living unit (master necromancer excluded). The cannot attack and they can scream multiple times with a fairly long cool down, however they are bound by shackles to their hands which are easy to break (making them easier to kill, and as a ghost they are affected by healing magic as the ghosts).

Dark Knights(forgot to add this guy): Train peasants in the art of knight-ship, when they complete their training they are killed with their horse and reborn as one. This is a mounted unit, just a knight with a shield and a sword. Both the horse and knight are rotten, and undead.

Edited by HorneyBull, 20 May 2012 - 12:56 AM.


#2 IanD967

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:13 PM

Gah.. vampires again >.<

Though it is a nice idea we have no idea what sort of units the commander have access to or even the amount of buildings and what type they may be (HQ, Barracks and Towers may be the limit to them for all we know)

Plus to keep with balance the Arches, Melee guys and Cavalry would all be the same but with a different skin.

Other than that the Crypt really reminds me of the WC3 version especially with the graveyard.

#3 WeReWalRuS

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:49 PM

Wow, this a great thread. I'm assuming that the Ultimate summon is for the Commander? If so, would it be better to forgo a mega-beast in order for something different? I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and assume that only a few of the Commanders are going to have summons (like the Empire's dragon)

Possible alternatives:

The dead never sleep: Reanimate every enemy corpse as a zombie that has died within the last minute. This could offer some decent strategy, and help turn the tide of a battle significantly

In the dead of the night: Actively changes the weather of the map, bringing darkness and rain. This will decrease ranged attack abilities, decrease visibility, and increase undead movement speed for a short duration.

Then again, the Frankenstein monster idea is awesome, especially the idea in regard to moving over corpses.

#4 IanD967

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:36 AM

I really like both of those ability suggestions.

If there is an undead faction maybe we can have both of those abilities but in a different way?
Like renanimate every corpse at a certain location for a certain duration before they die for good with a 3-5 minute cooldown?
The weather changing could be a shorter cooldown like 2 minutes but a shorter duration like 30 seconds

#5 HorneyBull

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:17 PM

The spells aren't the racial spells, they are the unique hero's spells.

#6 IanD967

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 04:13 PM

Sorry, must have got mixed up when you mentioned the "Build" :P

I'll provide more feedback now and the Hero part.

View PostHorneyBull, on 10 April 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

Main hero:

Starting builder/unique hero master necrowmancer(alive): who can build throught channeling dark magic to either convert damaged enemy buildings, or summon new buildings. While channeling he can't be moved. Converted buildings will build the correct racial units of the faction such as workers would be now skeletons, and zomibes would be recieve from footmen. Unique abillites would include being able to recieve experiance from building and raising minions. Being the only unit in the early game that has his minions not die after a peroid of time. Also being the only unit able to make a frankenstien abomination later in the game which is the only take for the undead. This unit is immune to holy magic, and can be healed.

Im not entirely sure why a frontline hero should be able to convert and summon buildings.
Why shoulden't his minions die after a period of time?
Being able to gain experience from building and raising minions would be a good idea as it would encourage a front-line commander type player who would rely more on the RTS side of the hero instead of the MOBA type heroes should be.
In addition why is he also immune to holy magic and be able to be healed? seems quite OP so far.

Spells ONLY FOR THE MASTER NECROWMANCER, He is the race's special hero and contains all the race's spells. however they do not have a global range, they are just like every other caster's spells but end up being stronger.

Raise dead: summons the undead version of the target creaute's corpse. Starting off it can only convert workers, footmen and archers, into skeleon miners, zombies, and skeletal archers. The next levels will be able to convert multiple corpses at once, and more creatures such as undead knights.

Starts off pretty fine by being able to raise a single enemy corpse to fight for your cause (you are Undead afterall) but im not sure it should be able to convert multiple corpses at once while also being able to raise heavy enemy units would be more balanced being able to convert a group of weaker units or a single heavy unit to keep it balanced in a team fight

Convert: Places the targeted low health building under your control. Only works on none holy building such as castles and more buildings. Converted buildings can only produce your racial creatures and cannot be repaired.

I still don't see how a front-line Hero (being in all the fighting) would or even needs to be converting enemy buildings.

Build: Channel to summon a racial building, the time required for each building differes.

He should be a front-line fighter/support/caster, not a builder.

Torment soul: Target a unit and deal damage, if the unit dies a ghost is born. Later levels give this spell smaller aoe and more damage.

This is more like it! pretty good, especially the Ghost part.

Decay: Target an area, all creatures within this area start to decay, turning into skeletons dealing % damage per second based on their max hp. corpses affected by this spell are only able to be ressurected as skeletons

Wait, does this convert enemies or just deal DOT?
And why would corpses be affected by "Decay" and become ressurected despite them supposed to be decaying?

Ultimate Summon Frankenstien abomination: A summoned unit that has a ridiculus ammount of ammount of health with low attack damage. Upgrades: Frankenstein horror resreached, which allows this summon to be a host of the plague, and regain life by walking over corpses. Also for every corpse walked on, his max life increases by a % of the corpse's max life. This unit does low damage in a cleave in front of it. The idea is to upgrade it into the horror so that the plague can be used to provide damage. *NOTE* all master necrowmancer spells are permanit including this guy. He is the end game unit of the dead. A corpse which consumes other corpses to get stronger.

Is this supposed to be a pet-type summon or like the dragon (which was a Commander ability, not Hero)?
What do you mean by "spells are permanant"? as in, once cast they cannot be stopped or changed?
Having said that the creature itself does sound pretty good but surely he would need some sort of damage to be rendered threatening to gain the attention of the enemies focus.

OR

Ultimate Endless ranks of the damned: Everytime a corpse is produced into a large area, the corpse is automatically reborn as the undead unit version of that corpse.
This would be a great ultimate ability! though aslong as it's balanced in terms of a duration and cooldown



#7 HorneyBull

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 06:53 PM

You misunderstand the undead them selves are a souless concept without the will of a strong commander they wont do stuff. This isn't like other games where as there is a dark lord controling them, and they have a will. In this idea the undead are mindless and require the main hero to command them. The main hero is the only one who can make other buildings required for the race to improve. This race isn't a group, but rather just the single power of the main hero. Which is why he starts off ok, but ends up becoming more powerful.

Edited by HorneyBull, 12 April 2012 - 07:08 PM.


#8 idyemyhairbrown

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:30 AM

Either I misunderstand your concept or you are conflating the two seperate roles in SoaDA. In this game there is a Commander and a Hero role. They are disparate symbiotic roles and require seperate players. In your faction idea, it seems that the Commander controls the main hero? I think this was picked up by Ian above.

I'd like to see a more detailed framework for what seperate functions the Commander and Hero roles each get to enjoy with this faction. Otherwise, props - sounds like a fun faction to play and you've put a ton of work in it.

#9 IanD967

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:42 AM

No, I do not misunderstand the Undead but I am probably misunderstanding your concept of them.

The problem I see though is having the Hero actually being the commander at the same time as being a front-line Hero/Champion which would render the Commander role useless yet if it is an Undead Commander then they cannot control the Hero/Champion at the same time.

Plus if the Commander with his own normal army plus the army of this Undead hero would be so overpowered! It would be 2 Commanders versus 1 unless the enemy team have one aswell.

But if it isn't the case but the Undead hero is the only one that could help improve the Commanders buildings then the Commander is almost useless again because of it (apart from the monotomy of building units, assigning them to heroes and thats it)

#10 HorneyBull

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 05:29 PM

Yes, the hero and commander are one. Which is why his spells are stronger, and has unique special skills. The race it's self has no global skills, and abillities, but the master necrowmancer the main hero is the comander too. Think of it like in mass effect where the evil bad guy possess one of those bug dudes and they become stronger, except that the master necrowmancer is permanity possessed.

#11 WeReWalRuS

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:44 PM

View PostHorneyBull, on 13 April 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

Yes, the hero and commander are one. Which is why his spells are stronger, and has unique special skills. The race it's self has no global skills, and abillities, but the master necrowmancer the main hero is the comander too. Think of it like in mass effect where the evil bad guy possess one of those bug dudes and they become stronger, except that the master necrowmancer is permanity possessed.

If the Master necromancer was to get killed, what would the consequences be for the army? Does it start to deteriorate until he respawns, thus reasserting his control?

#12 IanD967

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 12:10 AM

So, it would be 1 commander and 4 heroes versus 1 commander and 5 heroes? which would be unbalanced.

I understand the concept of what your trying to do with the examples of Harbinger and the Collectors but it would still be unbalanced as it leaves the enemy team constantly outnumbered.

#13 HorneyBull

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 09:47 AM

No really since if you kill the master necrowmaner he wouldn't be able to do improve anymore.  I guess maybe a lengthy revive feature for the master necromaner in the town center. but it would be 1 commander and 4 heros vs 5 heros which one of the heros has slighty stronger spells. The master necrowmancer is the commander and a hero at the same time.

Edited by HorneyBull, 14 April 2012 - 09:48 AM.


#14 HorneyBull

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 10:01 AM

No it would be more like 1 commander and 5 heroes since the master necromancer spells have the same range as the other heroes. I guess they could make it so the army slowly deteriorates.

Edited by HorneyBull, 14 April 2012 - 10:02 AM.


#15 IanD967

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 01:50 PM

so it would be 1 commander and 5 heroes? which would still make it OP because of the enemy team being constantly outnumbered no matter how fast or slow the army itself deterioates

#16 Jeru_Sorrin

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:14 AM

yeah too OP for extra hero commander. However the commander spells aren't too OP if it's only persents of raising the dead or a AOE spell. However, have you noted how many units the imperial faction has? I think there are a couple of slots that you could still fit in units.

Also I like the fact that you see the need of living and dead even though it is a necro faciton. Due solely, of course, to the need of life to have death, which lead to undeath ;).

Edited by Jeru_Sorrin, 18 April 2012 - 04:28 PM.


#17 HorneyBull

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:59 PM

View PostIanD967, on 14 April 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

so it would be 1 commander and 5 heroes? which would still make it OP because of the enemy team being constantly outnumbered no matter how fast or slow the army itself deterioates

No no, it's 5 heroes vs 1 commander and 4 heroes.
The master necromancer is a little more op to even it out since 4 heroes wouldn't be fair.
Plus if you take him out you cripple this race majorly, since he is the only builder.

#18 WeReWalRuS

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:07 PM

Champion Concept:

Erik the Timeless (or Zombie)

Passive: will return to life for n times before respawning. n = Eriks current level.

General stats: very weak, in fact, he sucks.
Example: normal champ (alive) lvl 1: 100hp/lvl 2: 200 hp/lvl 3: 300 hp/etc (using very simplistic numbers here)
   Erik lvl1: 50hp/lvl 2: 70 hp/lvl 3: 100hp/etc (maybe even lower ratios)

Q.) AoE: Kinda scary: Causes fear for 1 sec. low cooldown.
W.) Puke: cone skill shot: low damage with poison effects/heals friendly units
E.) Brains: Erik eats the brains of a enemy minion/neutral creep (x damage), creating a friendly zombie minion
R.) Nauseam: Erik's body releases a cloud of flies, that chokes his enemies around him. Large AoE: enemy attack speed is halved, friendly attack speed is doubled.

Erik is designed to disrupt. Essentially, his role is to prevent damage to friendly units by causing fear, creating more friendly units, and keeping them alive with sporadic heals. Eventually, after creating a horde, is ult is used to turn the battle. The idea is to win a battle of attrition, which is good, since Erik is hard to kill (for the respawn anyways).

Edited by WeReWalRuS, 18 April 2012 - 02:07 PM.


#19 HorneyBull

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 06:20 AM

View PostWeReWalRuS, on 18 April 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

Champion Concept:

Erik the Timeless (or Zombie)

Passive: will return to life for n times before respawning. n = Eriks current level.

General stats: very weak, in fact, he sucks.
Example: normal champ (alive) lvl 1: 100hp/lvl 2: 200 hp/lvl 3: 300 hp/etc (using very simplistic numbers here)
   Erik lvl1: 50hp/lvl 2: 70 hp/lvl 3: 100hp/etc (maybe even lower ratios)

Q.) AoE: Kinda scary: Causes fear for 1 sec. low cooldown.
W.) Puke: cone skill shot: low damage with poison effects/heals friendly units
E.) Brains: Erik eats the brains of a enemy minion/neutral creep (x damage), creating a friendly zombie minion
R.) Nauseam: Erik's body releases a cloud of flies, that chokes his enemies around him. Large AoE: enemy attack speed is halved, friendly attack speed is doubled.

Erik is designed to disrupt. Essentially, his role is to prevent damage to friendly units by causing fear, creating more friendly units, and keeping them alive with sporadic heals. Eventually, after creating a horde, is ult is used to turn the battle. The idea is to win a battle of attrition, which is good, since Erik is hard to kill (for the respawn anyways).

I like your idea. But it would be too easy to suppress that zombie lol. Plus zombies aren't weak, they are strong but slow and stupid. I'd like to see him have more life, and less damage :D

#20 karsh

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 11:51 AM

a fascinating concept, i truly enjoyed it, but if you will permit, i would like to bring up some problems/discrepancies i saw in the faction build.

1. you spawn peasants, which are in turned used to create soldiers. The problem is you have to spawn a unit, paying for it, then kill it, paying for that as well, to get a baseline fighter.  You should not have to pay twice to get one unit.

2. The commander should not be able to corrupt/switch enemy buildings, for then the game would merely become keep the commander off the buildings, otherwise you lose them. Also, i noticed that for his AoE attack, he gains damage, but loses area effect. I think the damage should be kept good, but not so your just using the spell to solo a single hero, forgoing the units around him, and that the area should probably grow a lil more, not decline in size.

3. The forsaken apothecary would really only be able to affect the living, as the dead have no need of potions. the one exception i could see it affecting would be the vampires.

4. The commander/hero combination would not work well, for if he plays the role of hero, he neglects his work as a commander, and if he plays the role of commander, he neglects the role of the hero, but even then is still off balance. Either way it runs, you would not be able to do this with the current game, as you have too many heros.

5. The Frankenstein monster being weak directly defeats the purpose of the Frankenstein monster. He is, if you have read the story, scarily intelligent, faster than mortal man, and far stronger than him. to make him a special unit summonable only by the commander, and then he is underpowered, also defeats the purpose of a special unit. Understandable on the max health increase, but his strength would have to improve, otherwise the one use would be a tank that in the end, if not capped right, would have a few thousand hit points, thus allowing it to sit there, take all the spell damage, then kill a champion/hero with no spells, and taking little damage.

now please keep in mind, i genuinely enjoyed the idea of the undead faction, as it is interesting. i would suggest maybe other units, such as wraiths, shades, banshees, or maybe even other mythological horror systems, such as the werewolves, gnolls, orcs, or such.

good luck =)

Edited by karsh, 26 April 2012 - 12:53 PM.





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