30 replies to this topic

[TheUnsungWar]

Alight little background info first, of course.  I was a major player of the game Heroes of Newerth, which is like DotA and LoL.  I searched on the forums for a few minutes to see if anyone was talking about a transition from HoN to SOaDA, but it seems as though mainly LoL players are coming over.  I read the article for this game in GameInformer and it has interested me.  My main concern and first question is this: "Will this game be a 'buy to win game' that I have heard LoL is?" Special thing about HoN , is that it isnt like that even though they went to a f2p game.

My second question is: "Will this game 'port' heroes from other games, or be completely original?"

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions

[WeReWalRuS]

I'm not an authority by any means, but I would like to address this comment.

TheUnsungWar, on 13 April 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

"Will this game be a 'buy to win game' that I have heard LoL is?" Special thing about HoN , is that it isnt like that even though

IMHO, LoL doesn't fall into this category either. Some of the most powerful champs in this game are the older ones, and don't require too much of a grind in order obtain due to their low IP cost. Soraka, ammumu, Janna, etc are all top tier champs. Granted, you could just buy them, but nothing's stopping someone from earning them by simply playing

TheUnsungWar, on 13 April 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

"Will this game 'port' heroes from other games, or be completely original?"

Given the amount of heroes that are present in this genre, which would include 100's of em, It would be hard to be completely original. That doesn't mean that we can't hope for it anyway. Givin some of the gameplay mechanics that we've seen so far, there's plenty of opportunity for new ideas (like attaching units to heros). Only time will tell...E3 isn't too far away...

[Sayan]

TheUnsungWar, on 13 April 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

Alight little background info first, of course.  I was a major player of the game Heroes of Newerth, which is like DotA and LoL.  I searched on the forums for a few minutes to see if anyone was talking about a transition from HoN to SOaDA, but it seems as though mainly LoL players are coming over.  I read the article for this game in GameInformer and it has interested me.  My main concern and first question is this: "Will this game be a 'buy to win game' that I have heard LoL is?" Special thing about HoN , is that it isnt like that even though they went to a f2p game.

My second question is: "Will this game 'port' heroes from other games, or be completely original?"

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions

Hearing something doesn't always make it fact, just cause u heard someone say that LOL is 'buy to win' doesn't make it true, I have extensively played LOL and have quite litterally 56 champions on both of my accounts unlocked out of the 95 available currently and that includes 3 full rune pages, one for AD, one for casters and the other for jungle and i've never payed a dime for either of them. Now instead of saying LOL is pay to win and all kinds of nonsense why don't you take the time and play the game a little and understand how it works before posting some rather ignorant statements like that.

If i said, that I heard your Mom is ***** and she slept with all the men in the neighborhood would that make it true? You see what I did there, ignorance is not bliss...

[TheUnsungWar]

Thank you WeReWalRuS for responding to my questions.  I figured with HoN, DotA, and LoL (if I am missing any correct me) the hero pool would be quite full already and ports will be somewhat common.  That doesn't bother me at all really.

You make a point saying that the older ones are pretty much ahead in LoL, but I am still a little confused on how LoL's buying system works.  In HoN basically all that you can buy is "gold" status heroes, which are the new heroes coming out that will be available to the "public" later in time (f2p players only get a select pool of heroes to choose from, where as paid members get the whole roster, except gold unless paid for).  So are you saying your two options are that you have to grind up your rank to potentially unlock heroes in LoL or just buy them?

I don't know much about this game yet but being f2p, I honestly prefer HoN's buying system over LoL's from what I know so far.  But hey, as far as I know SOaDA doesn't have a buying system in place. XD

[TheUnsungWar]

Ah but Sayan, I rarely have free time right now so you have to deal with my ignorance. Truly sorry but try not to rage to hard when I accidentally step on a few toes for being uneducated about LoL.  I don't mean too, but it happens :/  BTW I believe your accomplishments are grand beyond measure but to me I am unable to praise you for it, since my ignorance is just too great.  But maybe in due time I'll learn some more from this thread and I'll be able to commend you. until then...

[WeReWalRuS]

In LoL, you have two options.

IP: you obtain IP by simply playing games. You get a "first win of a day bonus" every 24 hours (its actually a little less than that), that basically gives you a little boost in IP for kicking some butt. Significantly more IP is awarded for winning vs losing, but one can still obtain IP by playing Co-op games vs bots. Essentially, you can still earn credit while learning to play, giving you a chance to experiment before you jump into pvp.

- IP will allow you to buy heroes and runes, which allow you to tweak how your character is played (health/attack/speed/gold buffs)

RP: This is credit that you actively purchase. The more you buy, the better the value.

- RP will allow you to buy heros, hero packs, IP/XP boosts, and skins.


A good portion of players suggest using RP for heros, and saving IP for runes. Its obviously up to personal preference, and how much time you have to play.

Character costs:

Older characters cost 450 Ip, while the newer ones cost 6300 IP.
- categores 450 - 1350 - 3150 - 4800 - 6300. One could potentially earn a 450 IP character with just a few games (depending on how you do).

RP: Riot often has sales in regard to champions and skins, decreasing the price for a few days.

New heroes are usually released every 2 weeks, unless some issue arises.

I hope this helps. Honestly, if Ironclad adopted a similiar strategy, I would be satisfied. I wonder how much more a commander would be than a hero...or perhaps the other way around.


Oh yeah, welcome to the forum!

Edited by WeReWalRuS, 13 April 2012 - 10:37 PM.

[IanD967]

Welcome to the forums!

TheUnsungWar, on 13 April 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

You make a point saying that the older ones are pretty much ahead in LoL, but I am still a little confused on how LoL's buying system works.  In HoN basically all that you can buy is "gold" status heroes, which are the new heroes coming out that will be available to the "public" later in time (f2p players only get a select pool of heroes to choose from, where as paid members get the whole roster, except gold unless paid for).  So are you saying your two options are that you have to grind up your rank to potentially unlock heroes in LoL or just buy them?

I don't know much about this game yet but being f2p, I honestly prefer HoN's buying system over LoL's from what I know so far.  But hey, as far as I know SOaDA doesn't have a buying system in place. XD

So, having access to the entire selection of heroes in HoN isn't a pay to win system despite it giving you access to champions the free 2 play people would never get access to?
wheras in LoL every can get access to the heroes they want and none of them are restricted on the free rotation (8 per week and no champion is excempt from being in the pool)

With regards to the LoL payments, WeReWalRus has pretty much covered it with his post.

WeReWalRuS, on 13 April 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

In LoL, you have two options.

IP: you obtain IP by simply playing games. You get a "first win of a day bonus" every 24 hours (its actually a little less than that), that basically gives you a little boost in IP for kicking some butt. Significantly more IP is awarded for winning vs losing, but one can still obtain IP by playing Co-op games vs bots. Essentially, you can still earn credit while learning to play, giving you a chance to experiment before you jump into pvp.

- IP will allow you to buy heroes and runes, which allow you to tweak how your character is played (health/attack/speed/gold buffs)

RP: This is credit that you actively purchase. The more you buy, the better the value.

- RP will allow you to buy heros, hero packs, IP/XP boosts, and skins.

[TheUnsungWar]

Thanks again WeReWalRus, you have been most informative.  LoL's system seems to be more of an attention getting, since you basically play more to get runes, which allow you to play better (assuming the way you want to play is better).  The runes part I am unfamiliar with since HoN didn't have that.  The things that increased stats and such were in game items you would buy from the money you would raise killing other Heroes and creeps.  (sorry if I am using terms you do not understand)  But it seems interesting.

@IanD976
-HoN was originally a priced game at $30, and it still is.  They introduced HoN as f2p to try and compete with LoL, since more gamers were flocking that direction (which they thought was the best market strategy).  I wouldnt consider HoN to be pay to win because the only thing that you can pay for is a membership (allows you the full roster instead of the rotating pool) and gold tokens (allows you to buy new heroes - usually 2 weeks in advance before they are knocked down to the regular hero roster).
-See when S2 Games swung to the direction of f2p, all of there previous customers (paid membership people) were about to be playing games with people who have no idea what they are doing.  The learning curve is much higher in HoN than LoL (see SAYAN's forum post and news article for proof located at the bottom of the post) and these new guys would destroy the rankings of the members, so they decided to separate them as much as they could.  The f2p players basically have their own servers and are given a chance to experience how the game is played.  The pool rotates every week so it is not strictly limiting as you might think.  They are able to play with the actual members and big boys but only through using up tokens that they achieve with winning in other games.  Once a membership is paid you basically switch servers to the membership side.  Hope this helped you understand a bit more   
*All this information is derived solely by me and my experience in Alpha and Beta testing Heores of Newerth, HoN.

http://www.sinsofada...-as-an-e-sport/

Edited by TheUnsungWar, 14 April 2012 - 09:23 AM.

[Mornhaven]

Hey, TheUnsungWar, welcome to the forums. To answer your initial questions: SoaDA will have a very similar pay structure to LoL so there is no "pay-to-win". The current method of availability of heroes and commanders is that you can use in-game currency that you get from completing matches to unlock any character you want at anytime (skins you will need actual money). The devs say that there will not be very much of a grind as written by gamespy:
"The brothers Fraser stress that absolutely everything other than cosmetic skins will be unlockable by earning in-game currency -- and claim that the cost of those unlocks is generously low when compared to other games using the same model. "We're taking a bit of a chance here," says Blair."(gamespy).
So since LoL has a similar pay style and not much grind, it will relatively be easy to unlock things. Also there will be a free week rotation for players to try out champions, once again similar to LoL (gamespy).

As for your second question the devs mention that there are going to be some common archetypes for heroes (glass cannon mages, tanking characters with not necessarily high, consistent, dps output, etc.)(escapist). However, there is not much information about the heroes other than what we have seen from the ones represented in art and the ones shown in game at the GDC. I feel that because of the different art-style the devs will not be directly porting over heroes from other games and stay the "originality" route.

Sources:
gamespy
http://pc.gamespy.co.../1220401p1.html
escapist
http://www.escapistm...s-of-a-Dark-Age


I hope this answered your questions and (sorry, this seems like a shameless bump, but...) if you have any other questions I wrote most of what other sources have revealed from GDC at: http://www.sinsofada...s-and-previews/

Edited by Mornhaven, 14 April 2012 - 10:10 AM.

[TheUnsungWar]

Hey thanks a lot Mornhaven!

I was actually coming to update this thread with information exactly like you have written.
Game Informer writes:
"...All of the non-cosmetic content is playable without spending a dime, however, as every character and faction is available for free on a rotating schedule..."

This is the f2p method HoN uses.  So I believe all of my questions have been answered.  Thanks guys!

[IanD967]

TheUnsungWar, on 14 April 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

@IanD976
-HoN was originally a priced game at $30, and it still is.  They introduced HoN as f2p to try and compete with LoL, since more gamers were flocking that direction (which they thought was the best market strategy).  I wouldnt consider HoN to be pay to win because the only thing that you can pay for is a membership (allows you the full roster instead of the rotating pool) and gold tokens (allows you to buy new heroes - usually 2 weeks in advance before they are knocked down to the regular hero roster).
-See when S2 Games swung to the direction of f2p, all of there previous customers (paid membership people) were about to be playing games with people who have no idea what they are doing.  The learning curve is much higher in HoN than LoL (see SAYAN's forum post and news article for proof located at the bottom of the post) and these new guys would destroy the rankings of the members, so they decided to separate them as much as they could.  The f2p players basically have their own servers and are given a chance to experience how the game is played.  The pool rotates every week so it is not strictly limiting as you might think.  They are able to play with the actual members and big boys but only through using up tokens that they achieve with winning in other games.  Once a membership is paid you basically switch servers to the membership side.  Hope this helped you understand a bit more   

I've played HoN too I really did not like it, especially the community since in my first game all they ever did was flame and abuse me and my friend which really put me off it.

It did help me understand more about it but it hasn't changed my mind that I prefer LoL over HoN any day

[CWheezy]

Yeah it is really sad news that sins of a dark age wont be like hon at all, and instead you have grind everything to get the full game, unlike with hon where you could buy the full game forever

[TheUnsungWar]

CWheezy please read my quote from Game Informer.  It basically states HoN's system sir.

[CraigFraser]

We'll have different ways to purchase content that should appeal to you CWeezy

[psychoak]

Runes in LOL really aren't that big a deal.

I spent ~30k IP unlocking heroes before I started buying runes.  T3 runes are all you need to worry about, and they're not available till you hit level 20.  You can't even play ranked, which is where they really matter, for another ten levels after that.  There is ample time to gain the runes required for a versatile playing set before you head into ranked.

Grinding to get into ranked is a bigger job than grinding to be viable.  You really only need 10-15 champs to be a more than viable ranked player, and you can fill out most of that list before you hit level 10.  I unlocked a lot of 6300 IP characters or I'd have half the list unlocked in less than a thousand games.  It sounds like a lot, but if you've played an hour a day for a year you've gotten about as far.

[CWheezy]

CraigFraser, on 16 April 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

We'll have different ways to purchase content that should appeal to you CWeezy

If there is a way for me to have everything gameplay affecting, without any grinding at all, I am happy.

Also to the guy talking about hon, HoN was for a much longer time just like starcraft 2, where you paid the one 30 dollar fee and got everything forever. I think it is similar now, except you can grind also for stuff, or pay for everything. I hope SODA goes this way.

Quote

It sounds like a lot, but if you've played an hour a day for a year you've gotten about as far.

So, playing an hour a day for a year, just so you can play in ranked mode, isn't a lot.
How about a way where instead of playing an hour a day for a year, you can play ranked immediately

Edited by CWheezy, 16 April 2012 - 05:13 PM.

[Sayan]

CWheezy, on 16 April 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

If there is a way for me to have everything gameplay affecting, without any grinding at all, I am happy.

Also to the guy talking about hon, HoN was for a much longer time just like starcraft 2, where you paid the one 30 dollar fee and got everything forever. I think it is similar now, except you can grind also for stuff, or pay for everything. I hope SODA goes this way.

[/font]
So, playing an hour a day for a year, just so you can play in ranked mode, isn't a lot.
How about a way where instead of playing an hour a day for a year, you can play ranked immediately

AFAIK SOADA is free to play so there is no buying accounts, the developers have already made that clear from the various interviews they have given and the FAQ...

And the fallacy in your logic that one should be able to play ranked immediatly is rather bemusing, the question you should sincerely ask yourself is as a toddler, did you crawl before you walked? Or did you skip, jump and flip before you crawled? If you skipped, jumped and flipped before you crawled then the bigger question is did anyone drop you as an infant on your head? Is that why you have a peculiar case of the 'I am retard syndrome?'

[CWheezy]

Hmmmm, I guess if you are calling me a retard, you are calling every single street fighter, and starcraft player a retard, because you can play ranked right away in those games.

So you think I should have to grind the non full game, to unlock the full game and play ranked. But if I am playing not the full game, I'm not learning anything about the real, full game. So when I get to ranked, I have to start all over again. It seems like instead of grinding a lot, I could just start the learning process at full power, instead of having a ton of useless time before I can really learn how to play

[plasmatorture]

CWheezy, on 19 April 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

Hmmmm, I guess if you are calling me a retard, you are calling every single street fighter, and starcraft player a retard, because you can play ranked right away in those games.

So you think I should have to grind the non full game, to unlock the full game and play ranked. But if I am playing not the full game, I'm not learning anything about the real, full game. So when I get to ranked, I have to start all over again. It seems like instead of grinding a lot, I could just start the learning process at full power, instead of having a ton of useless time before I can really learn how to play

Bolded where you're really wrong.

I do agree LoL would be better if you could pay a flat fee, have all champs, have all runes and be level 30 from the get go. However, besides runes and masteries the game is otherwise the full game from the get go. By the time you can play ranked you still will be really shitty compared to most people who are playing ranked. These games (like SC and SF) require massive amounts of timesink to be competitively viable.

While LoL doesn't have an ideal system, it is years better than SF's "sit in training mode for 500 years before you can compete with anyone" system. At least LoL you get better and learn how to play by actually playing the game.

Also on the topic of porting heroes over, there's a LoL hero who heavily utilizes a fairy, whose abilities include shrinking an enemy, making an ally larger, and shielding allies. Which, by the way, is exactly how they described SoaDA's Fairy hero... so there certainly are some major similarities being shown already.

[Sayan]

CWheezy, on 19 April 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

Hmmmm, I guess if you are calling me a retard, you are calling every single street fighter, and starcraft player a retard, because you can play ranked right away in those games.

So you think I should have to grind the non full game, to unlock the full game and play ranked. But if I am playing not the full game, I'm not learning anything about the real, full game. So when I get to ranked, I have to start all over again. It seems like instead of grinding a lot, I could just start the learning process at full power, instead of having a ton of useless time before I can really learn how to play

I get the feeling you are one of those people who never learnt patience as a virtue, you want to get ranked immediately even without learning how to play a specific character, the difference between playing an RTS that is predominantly 1v1 and a MOBA that is predominantly 5v5 is that there are 4 other people who have to put up with the fact that you don't know how to play your character and that can be the difference between winning and losing.