30 replies to this topic

[WeReWalRuS]

What if...the only person that could see friendly units was the Commander? To be more specific, the view currently enjoyed by champions within other MOBAs will be what the Commander sees. The hero players, on the other hand, will be limited to what their actual champion sees. What are the implications of this game mechanic?

[FleurDeMur]

It would certainly be interesting. It would take a lot more teamwork and put much more power in the hands of the Commander; if he can't communicate or doesn't have map awareness, nobody on his team does.

[CWheezy]

It would be really awful, and you would have to ping everywhere.

If you couldn't voice chat it would be unplayable

[Ekko_Tek]

Company of Heros 2 has a new mechanic called True Sight where you can only see what your units can see - everything else is in the Fog of War so it's a more limited view than other RTS have. It'll require more caution and scouting - but the key is that everything is still controlled by one person. I wouldn't want this kind of limitation put on top of having to try to coordinate and communicate with a whole team.

[WeReWalRuS]

What if it was reserved for competitive play between clans? Typically these guys have some type of voice chat, and this game mode would allow them to separate themselves into an elite difficulty. Tournament clan matches...etc.

Edited by WeReWalRuS, 19 June 2012 - 10:46 AM.

[IanD967]

I would actually recommend the opposite: let them have it as an option in Custom games were there is no risk of ruining your normal stats incase it doesn't work well and if it does then possibly think about introducing it on ranked/normal?

[CWheezy]

I predict that if you could try it, you would hate it.

It would also make the game really slow, since you are scared of everything.

Finally, making a competitive mode completely different from the mode that regular players play in is a really bad idea, it should be the same mode for everyone. It really helps regular players connect with what is happening, and allows the community to build together, instead of having a huge divide between competitive and non competitive

[WeReWalRuS]

I think that it would change how MOBAs are played. Currently, the main focus is primarily on killing champions, with some lane pushing thrown in. This modified fog of war would shift things in the balance, perhaps creating a larger focus on pushing your friendly minions

CWheezy, on 20 June 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

It would also make the game really slow, since you are scared of everything.

Agreed, it probably would intially. I think that people would get over this however.

CWheezy, on 20 June 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

I predict that if you could try it, you would hate it.

What draws me to this game is the possibility of playing a MOBAesque game that is different. If we keep playing the same type of game mechanics, when does fatigue set in? Wouldn't it be better to have an option to make the game more complex/deep?

[CWheezy]

The main focus is not on killing champions, and never has been.

Also, if the main focus was on killing champions, changing fog of war would not change that goal, it would just change how it was done (ie always tower hugging and never going to gank because you have no idea what is happening). You would not want to push, because anyone could come out at any time

Finally, different /= better, or even having the potential to be better. Ever head the phrase "Nothing new under the sun"? It has probably been tried before somewhere, and the reason you don't see it now is probably because it did not work

[WeReWalRuS]

The focus has always been on champions...that is the human element of MOBA games, and where the competition truly comes from. In addition, your kill count determines how many perceive you, even though it shouldn't. Granted....killing towers, pushing lanes, supporting, etc are all good things...but they don't really win one any accolades. Keep in mind that I'm not stating my own opinion in this regard, I'm just stating what I feel that the average MOBA player values.

Your second point essentially reaffirmed what I said. I never said that it would change the goal, just even things a bit. As for the fear factor, that's what the commander would be for. Do you plan on ignoring yours when beta launches? If your commander tells your where the enemy is, then you have nothing to be afraid of. However, that does puts a ton of responsibility on the commander, and if he/she is a troll, then this would provide a huge opportunity for grief. If there was a weakness to my OP, I would imagine that this would be it.

As for your final point, I agree. Different doesn't always mean better. Then again, stagnation and cloning doesn't = better either. As for your cliche, of course a ton of ideas lack originality. Does that mean that we should assume that nothing is original, has already been put through a rigorous play test, and thus, destined to fail? If that was the case, we'd still be playing pong. Keep in mind that I'm not saying a tried and true idea isn't worth keeping around. I love games like Mario, Call of Duty, and Final Fantasy. I also like games that mix it up a bit, which to be honest, I assumed SOADA would do.

[OiTheRolk]

the thing is with this, this would put a lot of responsibility on the commander's shoulders. This would basically mean that having a low skilled player with poor map awareness play as the commander would drastically decrease the team's overall performance.
hmm... i just realized werewalrus touched on that subject.
but yeah. If you have a noob for a commander, your team would basically be screwed, and the commander would be wrongly reported as a troll... therefore, nobody who's new to the game would want to play commander roles. Even at higher levels, I think commanders would be often raged at.
I do think it's an interesting idea, but i don't know how well it would work - especially since ironclad wants to augment the gaming community's quality

[CWheezy]

The real focus in a moba game is winning, and to win in almost all mobs, you need to farm. That is the real focus.

Quote

Currently, the main focus is primarily on killing champions, with some lane pushing thrown in. This modified fog of war would shift things in the balance, perhaps creating a larger focus on pushing your friendly minions

This is what you actually said, and it shows that you want to move the goal from killing champs to killing creeps

[torxen]

CWheezy, on 20 June 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

This is what you actually said, and it shows that you want to move the goal from killing champs to killing creeps

The goal in high level games is already killing creeps. Overall, minion farm ends up being more important anyways. Minions die easily and don't deal damage, yet still give a decent supply of gold.

I also think that making the fog of war nearly impenetrable is a bad idea, but if you could tweak with only having vision of minions near you it may work better.

[WeReWalRuS]

CWheezy, on 20 June 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

The real focus in a moba game is winning, and to win in almost all mobs, you need to farm. That is the real focus.

And how do you win when playing against another player in MOBAs? By killing them. That's why you get farm, to purchase better weapons and armor...so you can kill other champions. Why buy armor if you're only pushing lanes and knocking out towers? Its because people want to kill you back. This is becoming an argument about semantics...but I really don't think that we're truly disagreeing, we're moving from point A to B via different routes.

Also...keep in mind that the commanders will have abilities that Hero players will not. For example, imagine if all commanders could reveal certain parts of the battlefield with cool down abilities. If he/she sees something important, they can make it abundantly clear to their heros by simply revealing it. Now...imagine a commander type that was better at this than the others. Instead of the Dragonlord, or the Merchant, perhaps the commander could be the head of a spy network or something. Perhaps one could be an engineer commander, one that utilizes a communication system much like the Romans did via signal fires and their watchtowers, thus granting vision around friendly towers.

Edited by WeReWalRuS, 21 June 2012 - 10:24 AM.

[WeReWalRuS]

lol...quoted myself

Edited by WeReWalRuS, 21 June 2012 - 10:24 AM.

[CWheezy]

You actually farm but staying safe and last hitting creeps.

I know for dota, hon and lol, a wave of creeps last hit well is worth more than a champion, sometimes way more

[WeReWalRuS]

CWheezy, on 21 June 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

You actually farm but staying safe and last hitting creeps.

I know for dota, hon and lol, a wave of creeps last hit well is worth more than a champion, sometimes way more

I <3 you.

What about the whole...commander revealing the battlefield idea? Feedback man...even if you don't like it.

[murdeoc]

the idea intrigues me, but is not doable unless you have voice-chat, which is essential in these games anyway, if you want to play competitive.
and besides that, it makes it another game entirely, which isnt to say i dont want to play it. i like it but it is not something you want to throw noobs in.
but that much was just a summary... i kinda like the idea and whether it comes down to minion or champion killing is yet to be seen in this 'not yet in beta' game... but the idea seems good to me, but as a kind of 'hardcore' version of the actual game which im excited about enough as it is...

Edited by murdeoc, 23 June 2012 - 08:42 PM.

[OiTheRolk]

murdeoc, on 23 June 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

the idea intrigues me, but is not doable unless you have voice-chat, which is essential in these games anyway, if you want to play competitive.
and besides that, it makes it another game entirely, which isnt to say i dont want to play it. i like it but it is not something you want to throw noobs in.
but that much was just a summary... i kinda like the idea and whether it comes down to minion or champion killing is yet to be seen in this 'not yet in beta' game... but the idea seems good to me, but as a kind of 'hardcore' version of the actual game which im excited about enough as it is...

maybe thats what they should do -  when you choose your role (commander or hero) and your map, they could give you the option to play either the "softcore" or "hardcore" version
this way, noobs can learn their game in peace, and the veterans can try a game which is a bit more challenging

[CWheezy]

But then there are actually 2 games being played. Which one is for competition?

That seems pretty bad if matchmaking segregates people into two different versions of the same map, which will turn out to be almost completely different games due to the fog of war. It is important that competitive play and casual play has the same base