20 replies to this topic

[Sarudak]

So I have no problem with there being lots of micromanagement involved when you're playing a hero as that's really their thing landing/dodging skill shots and knowing exactly when to fire off your abilities. But how much microing is involved as a commander. The thing is I hate micromanaging my armies in RTS games it's one of the things that frustrates me about the whole genre because it's tedious, difficult and has nothing to do with strategy. The problem is that if micromanaging units is possible and it provides and advantage then people will do it and the only way to play competitively will be to micro your units also. Therefore i will feel I am forced to micro manage my units in order both because I play to win and with this game even more so because my teammates are depending on me.

Now I know you guys made some efforts to mitigate microing in SoaSE with shield mitigation and i suppose in some senses it did help and I respect the effort but it really made microing all the more tedious. Instead of focusing one target the optimal was 3 attackers to one target. Or was it 4? I can never remember... So my question is do you have measures to mitigate the need and power of microing?

One way that I've always dreamed of this possibly happening but will likely never occur is if you could have programmable routines for your units to follow.

For a more realistic but still crazy idea what if you couldn't order your minions to attack a specific target? What if all you could do is order them to a specific location and then they would attack at will? That would eliminate both the ability and need to do most microing in battles. Also it would seem fitting in the MOBA scheme of things.

Anyone have any other ideas to prevent tedious micro management? Or do you like micromanagement?

[svonb]

Well i have to say that what makes a good "commander" should just be the ability to micromange and still be able to fullfill all other duties(collet resourse ex). And dont take me wrong, i am to horrible  bad at the micromange thing, but there are those that like and are good at this part so i think people like us would fit best as "heros" and to leave the micromangement to others.

[Sarudak]

svonb, on 23 February 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

Well i have to say that what makes a good "commander" should just be the ability to micromange and still be able to fullfill all other duties(collet resourse ex). And dont take me wrong, i am to horrible  bad at the micromange thing, but there are those that like and are good at this part so i think people like us would fit best as "heros" and to leave the micromangement to others.

I think micromanagement is an unintended side effect of RTS mechanics that detracts from the commanders true intended responsibility which is to plan and implement strategic level decisions.

O! Even crazier idea! What if heroes could give commands to minions that they are close to? That would be so awesome! Then heroes could act both as heroes and as field officers.

[Hezron]

I feel that micromanagement is a wonderful thing in RTS. Not only is there skill involved in good micro, its strategy as well, in positioning of armies and positioning of units in your unit comp, when to fire or use special abilities your units may have. Making the most out of your units is both skill and strategy. Things like kiting are also both skill and a strategy. And being able to Macromanage your force and micromanage your armies just  raises the skill cap.

Edited by Hezron, 23 February 2012 - 05:51 PM.

[Aridhol]

In my opinion, if you don't want to micro as a commander... you shouldn't play a commander....

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Sarudak, on 23 February 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

O! Even crazier idea! What if heroes could give commands to minions that they are close to? That would be so awesome! Then heroes could act both as heroes and as field officers.

Perhaps..  It really depends on how micro they want the heros and how macro they want the commander.  If the commander has full microing power, I'm fine with this being the case.  Yes, there will sometimes be order disagreements, but proper delegation of tasks during the game should prevent it.  In the event of a surprise attack on a hero for instance, the commander should be able to swoop in and command individual units.

[DeadDove]

I hate micro too. I personally think that anything that might have been micromanagement in a traditional RTS should be handled by the Heroes in SoDA. Blair mentioned in the Gamespot interview that the Commander would be handling the broader strategic elements with the Heroes dealing with particular tactics, which makes me think there will be some delegation of control.

[Sarudak]

I really hope that is true.

[Thanatological]

Anyway, I guess might as well get into the community somewhere.

First, Sarvoak..Heroes controlling random minions might lead too well some...easy trolling. However this is on the right track.


Im going to say mircomangement is a must. However I am not saying don't let the commander mitigate the respsobilites too the heroes. Some kind of support hero and or the ability too attach minions too a certain types of heros might be. ie, archer attached too archer type heros, mage can be attached too mage heroes, ect ect.  However if there is no mircomangement, you really get rid of commaander role as a whole. If it is not fleshed out with mangement that allows them too change the tide of the battle with various styles you honestly limit too very crude and set approachs too the game. Im not saying have them click every single unit too do something, but don't let them just build a barracks anywhere and spam a bunch of minions and sent them fourth without concern of the minion types and whats going on in game. Else you can just spam and get rid of most anything. Micromangement is an essical part of streagy.

A fine example is..what happens without it.

Supreme Ruler, only two resoruces and like ten units, and you can select hundards at a time, and just right click and it does everything on its own. NO concern for an approach manement or anything. With little concern of how it turns out because you just roll off more. It turns into horde units and just make a final push.

A fine example of mircomangement.

Hearts of Iron 3, provides mircomangement of units commanding movement, attacking retreats and movement of unit, unit types, and resupply,repleanstment and more on the tatical level. This creates a wide varitiy of ways too adress and deal with one issue, too such an extent that if one is able too they can either go into such depth that you can adress any issue you come across or not mircomanage as much and hand off little bits of the respoability too AI or even other players.


Overall my point is that mircomangement allows players to adress and deal with issues as apporate where as removing and activily avoiding it would only limit the role of commander.

[Sarudak]

If you're talking about supreme commander I found that rather a micro management nightmare. First of all you had the engineers that you had to micro to salvage and not too much because ore storage is limited. Then you had stuff like you could beat a tank with a bot if you did the whole zig zag dance. That game was super stressful cause you had to micro so much.

[Beklynn]

In a given military situation, the people handling logistics, and the people who handle battlefield operations are different.  Both of these are important elements of strategy but one is micro and one isn't.  I like the idea of the Commander role setting the high level goals and agendas while a given hero can act as a field general.

[Sarudak]

I think it could be really cool if commanders could act more like generals and heroes could act like field marshals. Even if it broke down like a commander could move units but could not give attack orders and heroes could only ping targets to attack and nearby minions would attack.

[Thanatological]

Sarudak I found Suprume Commander only requries you set rally points and click repeat build..Thats all you need to do too beat it on hard.

Anyway, the hero really should have next too no control over minions that are not assigned too them in my opinion. I beleive I sugggested such a thing somewhere around here. Attaching minions too hero that will follow them around and protect them. I think I also adressed it might leave a game very open too a troll too force a team to lose.

However, a real command structure has the someone at the top make broad general decisions, and leaving the decisions to smaller commanders too get more and more exact as you get too a lower level of command. However we are not running a real army here so..Each role would have too cover a great deal of the diffrent levels of command. The hero should have a direct command of whatever the commander wants him to. Nothing short of that. You could think of mininos as infantry and heroes as tanks. The hero is still a weapon not the commander. Keep the roles seprate and deverise.

Edited by Thanatological, 25 February 2012 - 06:06 AM.

[Sarudak]

Ah that's the difference. You were playing against a stupid AI and I was playing the online ladder where you must micro every one of your hundreds of units or you have no chance to win.

[EmpReb]

I like tactical mirco. IE controling fleets in combat if its SoaSE.. what I hate is empire mirco of buidling of the empire... I just can't split my head between building planets and then combat mirco... just is too much for my ADHD. .. I guess thats why I do better at shooters...

[Ascanius31]

Ungh I hate micro too. It would be really interesting if they found a nice balance between making micro fully necessary and, like in TA Kingdoms and I'm sure lots of other games, just giving you the preset options of "Passive" "Agressive" and "Defensive" behaviors on your individual units or unit groups. If you're not paying attention, and you set a group to patrol an area and have them on Defensive so they only attack if they're attacked, an intelligent enemy could walk right under them without having to kill them.

If there were customizable behavior settings, and several defaults, then THAT could be very very interesting. It would allow new or more casual players to just use the presets, and let the hardcore players tweak their behavioral presets down to the nth degree right where they want them.

[Thanatological]

I think it is a matter of finding the balance between people with tons of experience with the system and like too mange everything and thew new player who may not know everything too prevent an overwhelming experience when starting.

[CraigFraser]

We will maintain our philosophy of "easy to learn, hard to master."

[Sarudak]

Is this in answer to my post? And is the implication that mastering = learning to micromanage all your troops correctly?

[Ascanius31]

I think cryptic is more than we can hope for until we see some footage from these guys!   They want to keep the suspence--and can you blame them?